Coupling of Two Deities (R-18)
Izanagi and Izanami built a Heavenly Pillar and a palace on Onokoro Island.
Then Izanagi asked Izanami, “How is your body formed?”
“My body has one place that is under-formed.” Izanami answered.
Izanagi said, “My body has one place that is over-formed. Let me insert the over-formed part of my body into the under-formed part of your body to create land.”
“Sounds good,” Izanami agreed.
Izanagi suggested, “After circling the Heavenly Pillar, let’s couple. You circle the pillar from the right. I’ll go from the left.”
So, both started walking.
When they met after circling the pillar, Izanami exclaimed, “Oh, my! What a good looking man!”
“Oh, my!” Izanagi responded. “What a pretty girl!”
Then he added, “Maybe it wasn’t good that a woman spoke first.”
They joined in their bedroom and Izanami gave birth to Leech-Child. They put the child in a reed-boat and let it float away. Born next was Bubble Island. It wasn’t counted as their child, either.
They wondered why they couldn’t create solid land.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for reading.
This is the newest installment of my "Japanese mythology" series.
This series starts here:
http://goo.gl/KCCz4
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could anyone suggest an alternative to the word “couple”? The Japanese word used in the ancient text is “まぐはひ (maguwai).” “Maguwai” originally meant gazing at each other, “目合い.” Later, the word came to mean sexual intercourse. It’s a very old expression and nobody uses it anymore.
I’d rather not use the expression “make love” since the word “love” can have various connotations. Are there any decent English words or expressions that sound a bit old fashioned and mean “sexual intercourse”? This is a serious question. Don’t try to tell dirty jokes, please. If I find vulgar comments, I’ll delete them. ;-)
Also, could anyone suggest an alternative to the expression “a woman spoke first”? What I mean by this expression is that “a woman talked to a man instead of waiting to be talked to by a man.”
The alternatives I contemplated were:
Maybe it wasn’t good that a woman invited a man.
Maybe it wasn’t good that a woman wooed a man.
But Izanami didn’t invite or woo. All she did was to exclaim “What a good looking man!” Does anybody have any suggestions?
I would also be grateful for any corrections.
Then Izanagi asked Izanami, “How is your body formed?”
“My body has one place that is under-formed.” Izanami answered.
Izanagi said, “My body has one place that is over-formed. Let me insert the over-formed part of my body into the under-formed part of your body to create land.”
“Sounds good,” Izanami agreed.
Izanagi suggested, “After circling the Heavenly Pillar, let’s couple. You circle the pillar from the right. I’ll go from the left.”
So, both started walking.
When they met after circling the pillar, Izanami exclaimed, “Oh, my! What a good looking man!”
“Oh, my!” Izanagi responded. “What a pretty girl!”
Then he added, “Maybe it wasn’t good that a woman spoke first.”
They joined in their bedroom and Izanami gave birth to Leech-Child. They put the child in a reed-boat and let it float away. Born next was Bubble Island. It wasn’t counted as their child, either.
They wondered why they couldn’t create solid land.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for reading.
This is the newest installment of my "Japanese mythology" series.
This series starts here:
http://goo.gl/KCCz4
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could anyone suggest an alternative to the word “couple”? The Japanese word used in the ancient text is “まぐはひ (maguwai).” “Maguwai” originally meant gazing at each other, “目合い.” Later, the word came to mean sexual intercourse. It’s a very old expression and nobody uses it anymore.
I’d rather not use the expression “make love” since the word “love” can have various connotations. Are there any decent English words or expressions that sound a bit old fashioned and mean “sexual intercourse”? This is a serious question. Don’t try to tell dirty jokes, please. If I find vulgar comments, I’ll delete them. ;-)
Also, could anyone suggest an alternative to the expression “a woman spoke first”? What I mean by this expression is that “a woman talked to a man instead of waiting to be talked to by a man.”
The alternatives I contemplated were:
Maybe it wasn’t good that a woman invited a man.
Maybe it wasn’t good that a woman wooed a man.
But Izanami didn’t invite or woo. All she did was to exclaim “What a good looking man!” Does anybody have any suggestions?
I would also be grateful for any corrections.
>Don’t try to tell dirty jokes, please.
Well, I got nothing then =(
>Could anyone suggest an alternative to the word “couple”?
"Coupling" is a good word. I think it's effective because it implies they had sex while staying sort of neutral.
eg. Coupled train-carriages
>Also, could anyone suggest an alternative to the expression “a woman spoke first”?
>What I mean by this expression is that “a woman talked to a man instead of waiting to be talked to by a man.”
Hmm...maybe you can describe Izanagi's feelings like:
[Abashed/ashamed/embarrassed], Izanagi thought to herself "Oh my, maybe it's no good that a woman spoke out first" or something,
which brings out the same implication.
Well, Izanagi is a male deity. The male deity said "Maybe it wasn't good that a woman spoke first."
I don't think Izanami (female deity) was abashed or embarrassed. ;)
Is it confusing because of the way I wrote it?
Should I write the sentence beginning with "Then Izanagi said" on the same line as "'Oh, my!' Izanagi responded"? In that case, perhaps I should change the second "Izanagi" to "he." What do you think?
That's a good idea
I didn't know that "know" has that meaning. Thank you for telling me. I learned something! :)
But I'm afraid the expression is too euphemistic for this text. The original Japanese says みとのまぐはひせむ meaning "Let's do the gazing-at-each-other-in-the-bedroom thing." :D
So I think that みとのまぐはひ had a romantic connotation but meant having sex quite clearly. Perhaps "make love" is the only expression in English that has the same kind of nuance after all?
This is all a good illustration of how translation is *hard* and I'm impressed by people who can do it.
Then he added, “Maybe it wasn’t good that a woman spoke first.” (I agree that changing it to "he" was probably a good idea. Since the names have a difference of only 1 letter, it's a bit hard to keep track of who's who when reading at normal speed. And when lines of a dialogue each have a new line like that, I tend to assume each line is going to switch to the other person. So if the same person has two lines in a row, maybe another hint would be helpful? That's what I was trying to do here, but I don't know.)
Hmm, I can't think of much other than "made the first move", but I don't think that fits particularly well in this case, because it implies pretty clear intentions, which doesn't seem to apply here?
Yes, that's a fantastic solution! I changed "said" to "added." :)
As for "made the first move," I'm not so sure about it. Wouldn't it sound as if she really made a "move," whatever that is? Does exclaiming "What a good looking man!" count as a "move"?
In that case, "made the first move" might be good here.
The original Japanese sentence is 女人（woman）先に言える (said first) は 良からず (not good).
The thing is that I don't quite know how "Maybe it wasn't good that a woman spoke first" sounds to native speakers' ears.
When you read this sentence, did you understand what Izanagi meant? Was the meaning clear to you?
I might change the sentence to "a woman made the first move."
What do you think if I wrote:
Maybe it wasn't good that a woman approached a man.
or
Maybe it wasn't good that a woman spoke first instead of waiting.
??
The latter sort of sounds like the woman needs permission to speak.
“My body has one place that is under-formed,” Izanami answered. (you could also say "under-developed". Ditto the rest)
Let me insert the over-formed part of my body into the under-formed part of your body to create the land.”
“Sounds good,” Izanami agreed.
Then he added, “Maybe it wasn’t good that the woman spoke first.”
They wondered why they couldn’t create the solid land.
This series started here:
I can't think of anything for the other question.
I used the expression "join" later in "they joined in their bedroom." The Japanese book, Kojiki, usues two different kinds of expressions, so I wanted to do the same in English....But perhaps I shouldn't be so strict on my self. I like the expression "join together."
Also, as for "a woman talking to man first"... I was going to suggest "made the first move," but this usually implies something more sexual, even if it's as simple as just holding hands. I thought of suggesting "Maybe it wasn't good that a woman made first advances," but "made advances" is kind to close to "wooed a man." This is a tricky issue here... I'll be thinking about this, though! I'll get back to you if I think of anything.
Yes, when I checked thesauruses, I found "copulation" and "coitus." Since I wasn't familiar with the words, I googled them. I read some of the sentences that included those words, but I still didn't know how these two words sounded to native speakers. That's the problem. I need to input more sentences to know what kind of nuance each of these expressions has.
Thanks also for suggesting "a woman made first advances." Thanks to my friends, I'm becoming an expert on the expressions related to "a woman wooing a man." :D
Are there any decent English words or expressions that sound a bit old fashioned and mean “sexual intercourse”? // "lie together" is a good one. It is common from the 15th-18th century in English literature. Even by the 18th century it sounded old-fashioned, but still crops up occasionally even now when the writer wants to effect an archaic tone. It is often used in the past tense in narratives: "And they lay together and conceived a child..." It also occurs as "lie with one another." Both are euphemistic but get the point across.
Maybe it wasn’t good that a woman wooed a man. // Even though Izanami did not intentionally woo him, this choice is best since in many mythologies the woman is blamed for "wooing" or "tempting" the man regardless of her intentions.
"lie together" is interesting. We use the word 寝る to mean "sexual intercourse," but it is slang, not a decent expression at all! :D
As for the woman is blamed for "wooing," you're right. I guess it's a universal thing.
If you said where/when "they conceived a child", "conceived" is past tense, but the meaning is basically the same. I realize it is the woman doing most of the conceiving also.
"What I mean by this expression is that “a woman talked to a man instead of waiting to be talked to by a man"
Maybe it wasn't good that the woman [started a conversation/initiated conversation] with the man instead of having a conversation [started/initiated] by the man.
And thank you for your suggestion. Yes, "initiated a conversation" sounds good. :)